Republic 340a-b
Lover of Sophia / Rep. 1.340a-b
- Created on 2024-04-16 02:10:52
- Modified on 2024-04-16 03:09:08
- Aligned by Lover of Sophia
Done by sentence, and slightly edited from the Shorey.
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English
[ 340a ]
( 1 ) ναὶ μὰ Δίʼ , ἔφη , ὦ Σώκρατες , ὁ Πολέμαρχος , σαφέστατά γε .
( 2 ) ἐὰν σύ γʼ , ἔφη , αὐτῷ μαρτυρήσῃς , ὁ Κλειτοφῶν ὑπολαβών .
( 3 ) καὶ τί , ἔφη , δεῖται μάρτυρος ;
( 4 ) αὐτὸς γὰρ Θρασύμαχος ὁμολογεῖ τοὺς μὲν ἄρχοντας ἐνίοτε ἑαυτοῖς κακὰ προστάττειν , τοῖς δὲ δίκαιον εἶναι ταῦτα ποιεῖν .
( 5 ) τὸ γὰρ τὰ κελευόμενα ποιεῖν , ὦ Πολέμαρχε , ὑπὸ τῶν ἀρχόντων δίκαιον εἶναι ἔθετο Θρασύμαχος .
( 6 ) καὶ γὰρ τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος , ὦ Κλειτοφῶν , συμφέρον δίκαιον εἶναι ἔθετο .
[ 340b ]
( 1 ) ταῦτα δὲ ἀμφότερα θέμενος ὡμολόγησεν αὖ ἐνίοτε τοὺς κρείττους τὰ αὑτοῖς ἀσύμφορα κελεύειν τοὺς ἥττους τε καὶ ἀρχομένους ποιεῖν .
( 2 ) ἐκ δὲ τούτων τῶν ὁμολογιῶν οὐδὲν μᾶλλον τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον δίκαιον ἂν εἴη ἢ τὸ μὴ συμφέρον .
( 3 ) ἀλλʼ , ἔφη ὁ Κλειτοφῶν , τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον ἔλεγεν ὃ ἡγοῖτο ὁ κρείττων αὑτῷ συμφέρειν · τοῦτο ποιητέον εἶναι τῷ ἥττονι , καὶ τὸ δίκαιον τοῦτο ἐτίθετο .
( 4 ) ἀλλʼ οὐχ οὕτως , ἦ δʼ ὃς ὁ Πολέμαρχος , ἐλέγετο .
( 1 ) ναὶ μὰ Δίʼ , ἔφη , ὦ Σώκρατες , ὁ Πολέμαρχος , σαφέστατά γε .
( 2 ) ἐὰν σύ γʼ , ἔφη , αὐτῷ μαρτυρήσῃς , ὁ Κλειτοφῶν ὑπολαβών .
( 3 ) καὶ τί , ἔφη , δεῖται μάρτυρος ;
( 4 ) αὐτὸς γὰρ Θρασύμαχος ὁμολογεῖ τοὺς μὲν ἄρχοντας ἐνίοτε ἑαυτοῖς κακὰ προστάττειν , τοῖς δὲ δίκαιον εἶναι ταῦτα ποιεῖν .
( 5 ) τὸ γὰρ τὰ κελευόμενα ποιεῖν , ὦ Πολέμαρχε , ὑπὸ τῶν ἀρχόντων δίκαιον εἶναι ἔθετο Θρασύμαχος .
( 6 ) καὶ γὰρ τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος , ὦ Κλειτοφῶν , συμφέρον δίκαιον εἶναι ἔθετο .
[ 340b ]
( 1 ) ταῦτα δὲ ἀμφότερα θέμενος ὡμολόγησεν αὖ ἐνίοτε τοὺς κρείττους τὰ αὑτοῖς ἀσύμφορα κελεύειν τοὺς ἥττους τε καὶ ἀρχομένους ποιεῖν .
( 2 ) ἐκ δὲ τούτων τῶν ὁμολογιῶν οὐδὲν μᾶλλον τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον δίκαιον ἂν εἴη ἢ τὸ μὴ συμφέρον .
( 3 ) ἀλλʼ , ἔφη ὁ Κλειτοφῶν , τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον ἔλεγεν ὃ ἡγοῖτο ὁ κρείττων αὑτῷ συμφέρειν · τοῦτο ποιητέον εἶναι τῷ ἥττονι , καὶ τὸ δίκαιον τοῦτο ἐτίθετο .
( 4 ) ἀλλʼ οὐχ οὕτως , ἦ δʼ ὃς ὁ Πολέμαρχος , ἐλέγετο .
[
340a
]
( 1 ) Yes , by Zeus , Socrates , said Polemarchus , most clearly .
( 2 ) Of course , said Clitophon , if you are his witness .
( 3 ) What need is there of a witness ?
( 4 ) Thrasymachus himself admits that the rulers sometimes enjoin what is evil for themselves and yet says that it is just for the subjects to do this .
( 5 ) That , Polemarchus , is because Thrasymachus laid it down that it is just to obey the orders of the rulers .
( 6 ) Yes , Clitophon , but he also took the position that the advantage of the stronger is just .
[ 340b ]
( 1 ) And after these two assumptions he again admitted that the stronger sometimes bid the inferior and their subjects do what is to the disadvantage of the rulers .
( 2 ) And from these admissions the just would no more be the advantage of the stronger than the contrary .
( 3 ) O well , said Cleitophon , by the advantage of the superior he meant what the superior supposed to be for his advantage ; this was what the inferior had to do , and that this is the just was his position .
( 4 ) That isn’t what he said , replied Polemarchus .
( 1 ) Yes , by Zeus , Socrates , said Polemarchus , most clearly .
( 2 ) Of course , said Clitophon , if you are his witness .
( 3 ) What need is there of a witness ?
( 4 ) Thrasymachus himself admits that the rulers sometimes enjoin what is evil for themselves and yet says that it is just for the subjects to do this .
( 5 ) That , Polemarchus , is because Thrasymachus laid it down that it is just to obey the orders of the rulers .
( 6 ) Yes , Clitophon , but he also took the position that the advantage of the stronger is just .
[ 340b ]
( 1 ) And after these two assumptions he again admitted that the stronger sometimes bid the inferior and their subjects do what is to the disadvantage of the rulers .
( 2 ) And from these admissions the just would no more be the advantage of the stronger than the contrary .
( 3 ) O well , said Cleitophon , by the advantage of the superior he meant what the superior supposed to be for his advantage ; this was what the inferior had to do , and that this is the just was his position .
( 4 ) That isn’t what he said , replied Polemarchus .